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You know I'm always promoting the dissolution of most gender roles and differences? Well, that hasn't happened yet, so now I'm going to talk about the world in which we live, in which the female experience varies from the male experience - to different degrees based on numerous factors. In this world, the female experience is lacking a voice in history, art, the media, politics and academia. Women are represented in most public spheres in numbers far, far less than their proportion of the total population.
Women are taught to identify with men - they have to, humanity is male. But men are not taught to identify with women. I don't even think that statement needs to be substantiated, really. Books, television, children's pasttimes, career paths, college majors, clothing, school curriculums, this is fucking everywhere.
A part of the post-feminism world in which we live is that women are able to go into traditionally male-dominated fields, and this trend has not been reciprocated by men going into female-dominated fields. Part of the reason is that female-dominated fields are often paid less - nurses and teachers, for example, which is shameful and horrible. But another highly significant reason is that men pursuing traditionally female interests are mocked and derided and can even be subject to violence (sexism hurts men!). This reflects homophobia, but it also reflects misogyny. (I think I got these facts from here.)
I think it's incredibly harmful, so harmful, that men do not learn to identify with women, are not expected to become attached to TV shows with female leads as kids or read books about women in high school or go see movies about women as adults. I was reading a lot about rape and violence against women today, about how men participate in a rape culture where they don't speak out against sexism and violence even if they are not perpetrating it, where they buy into the myths that it's possible for the woman to "ask for it" and that once aroused they have a right to receive satisfaction. I wonder if this problem would be less severe if men's experiences taught them to identify with women more, to truly view them as people and not Other, to know and experience women's points of view.
Side note, I know there are men who can and do identify with women - but I'm pretty sure they're vastly outnumbered. Although I actually don't know a lot of asshole men that I have to deal with all the time, luckily, so some of my characterizations are based on other's stories, my experiences online, and the men who comment on the feminist articles I read, along with my own remembered experiences with sexism. If someone isn't treating me like a person, I stay away from them - but I'm also not attractive enough to be treated like an object too often so I am spared a certain amount of having to deal. Of course, I lack good data on the extent to which men these days are identifying with women, which is why this is my personal journal. XD
My experiences and that of many of my friends, as upper/middle-class, often white intellectuals is that we don't have to deal with this crap too much. Of course that's a good sign that we can meet good men in large numbers, but it also means I'm occasionally met with a sort of "not my problem, it's clearly not happening anymore" vibe when I talk about feminist stuff with them, but I assure you that reading personal stories at feminist sites that range from discussions with family over the dinner table to tragic violence, it really is happening, at schools, at places of work, in homes, and of course, on the street, in bars, at clubs and at parties.
Remember what I was saying the other day about evo-psych and how creating imagined inherent differences between men and women hampers people from being able to have successful heterosexual relationships? Well, I think this identification issue is another aspect of that - another way in which people cling to the idea that men and women are different and irreconcilable. They maintain the myth that women are these emotional creatures that are beyond men's understanding, when what's actually happening is that men are not being taught to understand women or empathize with them or put themselves in our place. (And, I think, women are taught to encourage that. Related note, I DO NOT LIKE the song "Bitch," except for a line here or there.)
By the way, it's when these phenomena manifest themselves in children's television that really makes me sad. The other stuff might make me angry, but my god do I hate to see TV for young kids enforcing gender roles. People are always saying that the really racist people and really homophobic people are old and will die and kids are much more tolerant, but I think sexism is being clung to at a far, far greater rate. There just isn't the same social pressure against it, shaming the behavior and starting change. I hope that things are changing, just slowly, but man. It doesn't feel great.
Also, having to explain to kids that they're seen as systematically inferior SUCKS. I saw an adorable video a while back of Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz taking her daughter around the Capitol (found it!) and she has to explain to her daughter why it took so long for women to get the right to vote. I believe she goes with "Men didn't trust women enough" and her daughter basically says "I trust boys even when they have cooties." (OK she didn't say cooties but it was implied. So cute!) Anyway, it's both adorable and really sad. [By the way, I can't even imagine how much shittier this conversation is for people of color, especially African-Americans. I originally didn't mention it because it seemed disrespectful to just include as an aside and I'm not qualified to speak at greater length, but leaving it out seemed even worse.]
A few links to pass on, since I've been collecting them and might as well share.
Starting with the lighter stuff!
"Strong Female Characters" - this says a lot of things that I've been trying to say. I was like "Yeeeeees." Strong female character is a meaningless term, it's not productive. The whole identification thing I talk about? That's helped when female characters are complex, human, fully fleshed out, real. It has nothing to do with how much ass they kick, how much power they hold, or how little they cry. She tries to search for a replacement for strong - I'd go with "real"? Or even "human."
Joey B and Violence Against Women - man, was I worried when I saw this, the blog is largely negative (as are most) and I really didn't think they were going to be handing out cookies, but Joey B did give a great speech and I'm happy they pointed me to it. Jilly B is super-awesome, I bet she helps Joey be so great.
And the media-related stuff. Two articles from The Hathor Legacy, an awesome blog. They're both by Jennifer Kesler, who I believe is the founder. These make me so angry.
On women and advertising - advertisers pay less for potential female viewers, because conventional wisdom is that 1) we're less likely to spend money on things? and 2) we're more likely to be watching TV anyway, so there's no demand. This means men are the assumed consumers, so programming is geared towards them - which, hey!, leads to the shit that I talk about above. (More on this from Ms. Kesler, cos Hollywood is oh my god so guilty as well. RAGE.) This is all run by "conventional wisdom" and inertia, not actual reason. I really recommend the blog, especially the Industry Buzz section. It articulates a lot of stuff that I vaguely sensed and demonstrates that none of this stuff is accidental.
On standards of beauty for successful actresses. GRRRRR. I don't think I talk about it as much as other things but believe me the appearance standards drives me crazy. I think men learn to fetishize things and again, that hurts everyone - men when their sex drive gets sort of screwed up, but more so women when they're encouraged to get plastic surgery.
And on men living in rape culture and allowing it to continue:
The initial article, explaining that men raping women is part of our culture and it doesn't fucking have to be like that.
A response with links to other relevant articles
So sad, so serious, so well said.
One person mentioned a game kids were playing at a pool when she was 15 or 16. The guys had just started getting stronger than the girls and they started playing a game where the guys would pick up and dunk the girls. It was in fun and everyone was laughing, but the girls were incapable of physically fighting off the guys, and any objection - shrieking, squirming, struggling - was ignored and seen as part of the game. So the only way to not participate was for this woman to get out of the pool completely. Now, the game itself is not a horrible thing for these kids to have done. But in life, so many of us have to get out of the pool, we're unable to go swimming, because we know it's the only way we can protect ourselves. I could really relate to that, which is why I retyped it even though it's the least disturbing thing to come out of the discussion. Another woman mentioned how she spends too much time making sure she'd be a credible victim, which I can also relate to. I shouldn't have to be a virtuous stay-at-home for people to 1) not rape me and 2) believe me if I say I've been raped. I should be able to be in a drunken stupor at a frat party in a short skirt and I should be safe.
Women are taught to identify with men - they have to, humanity is male. But men are not taught to identify with women. I don't even think that statement needs to be substantiated, really. Books, television, children's pasttimes, career paths, college majors, clothing, school curriculums, this is fucking everywhere.
A part of the post-feminism world in which we live is that women are able to go into traditionally male-dominated fields, and this trend has not been reciprocated by men going into female-dominated fields. Part of the reason is that female-dominated fields are often paid less - nurses and teachers, for example, which is shameful and horrible. But another highly significant reason is that men pursuing traditionally female interests are mocked and derided and can even be subject to violence (sexism hurts men!). This reflects homophobia, but it also reflects misogyny. (I think I got these facts from here.)
I think it's incredibly harmful, so harmful, that men do not learn to identify with women, are not expected to become attached to TV shows with female leads as kids or read books about women in high school or go see movies about women as adults. I was reading a lot about rape and violence against women today, about how men participate in a rape culture where they don't speak out against sexism and violence even if they are not perpetrating it, where they buy into the myths that it's possible for the woman to "ask for it" and that once aroused they have a right to receive satisfaction. I wonder if this problem would be less severe if men's experiences taught them to identify with women more, to truly view them as people and not Other, to know and experience women's points of view.
Side note, I know there are men who can and do identify with women - but I'm pretty sure they're vastly outnumbered. Although I actually don't know a lot of asshole men that I have to deal with all the time, luckily, so some of my characterizations are based on other's stories, my experiences online, and the men who comment on the feminist articles I read, along with my own remembered experiences with sexism. If someone isn't treating me like a person, I stay away from them - but I'm also not attractive enough to be treated like an object too often so I am spared a certain amount of having to deal. Of course, I lack good data on the extent to which men these days are identifying with women, which is why this is my personal journal. XD
My experiences and that of many of my friends, as upper/middle-class, often white intellectuals is that we don't have to deal with this crap too much. Of course that's a good sign that we can meet good men in large numbers, but it also means I'm occasionally met with a sort of "not my problem, it's clearly not happening anymore" vibe when I talk about feminist stuff with them, but I assure you that reading personal stories at feminist sites that range from discussions with family over the dinner table to tragic violence, it really is happening, at schools, at places of work, in homes, and of course, on the street, in bars, at clubs and at parties.
Remember what I was saying the other day about evo-psych and how creating imagined inherent differences between men and women hampers people from being able to have successful heterosexual relationships? Well, I think this identification issue is another aspect of that - another way in which people cling to the idea that men and women are different and irreconcilable. They maintain the myth that women are these emotional creatures that are beyond men's understanding, when what's actually happening is that men are not being taught to understand women or empathize with them or put themselves in our place. (And, I think, women are taught to encourage that. Related note, I DO NOT LIKE the song "Bitch," except for a line here or there.)
By the way, it's when these phenomena manifest themselves in children's television that really makes me sad. The other stuff might make me angry, but my god do I hate to see TV for young kids enforcing gender roles. People are always saying that the really racist people and really homophobic people are old and will die and kids are much more tolerant, but I think sexism is being clung to at a far, far greater rate. There just isn't the same social pressure against it, shaming the behavior and starting change. I hope that things are changing, just slowly, but man. It doesn't feel great.
Also, having to explain to kids that they're seen as systematically inferior SUCKS. I saw an adorable video a while back of Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz taking her daughter around the Capitol (found it!) and she has to explain to her daughter why it took so long for women to get the right to vote. I believe she goes with "Men didn't trust women enough" and her daughter basically says "I trust boys even when they have cooties." (OK she didn't say cooties but it was implied. So cute!) Anyway, it's both adorable and really sad. [By the way, I can't even imagine how much shittier this conversation is for people of color, especially African-Americans. I originally didn't mention it because it seemed disrespectful to just include as an aside and I'm not qualified to speak at greater length, but leaving it out seemed even worse.]
A few links to pass on, since I've been collecting them and might as well share.
Starting with the lighter stuff!
"Strong Female Characters" - this says a lot of things that I've been trying to say. I was like "Yeeeeees." Strong female character is a meaningless term, it's not productive. The whole identification thing I talk about? That's helped when female characters are complex, human, fully fleshed out, real. It has nothing to do with how much ass they kick, how much power they hold, or how little they cry. She tries to search for a replacement for strong - I'd go with "real"? Or even "human."
Joey B and Violence Against Women - man, was I worried when I saw this, the blog is largely negative (as are most) and I really didn't think they were going to be handing out cookies, but Joey B did give a great speech and I'm happy they pointed me to it. Jilly B is super-awesome, I bet she helps Joey be so great.
And the media-related stuff. Two articles from The Hathor Legacy, an awesome blog. They're both by Jennifer Kesler, who I believe is the founder. These make me so angry.
On women and advertising - advertisers pay less for potential female viewers, because conventional wisdom is that 1) we're less likely to spend money on things? and 2) we're more likely to be watching TV anyway, so there's no demand. This means men are the assumed consumers, so programming is geared towards them - which, hey!, leads to the shit that I talk about above. (More on this from Ms. Kesler, cos Hollywood is oh my god so guilty as well. RAGE.) This is all run by "conventional wisdom" and inertia, not actual reason. I really recommend the blog, especially the Industry Buzz section. It articulates a lot of stuff that I vaguely sensed and demonstrates that none of this stuff is accidental.
On standards of beauty for successful actresses. GRRRRR. I don't think I talk about it as much as other things but believe me the appearance standards drives me crazy. I think men learn to fetishize things and again, that hurts everyone - men when their sex drive gets sort of screwed up, but more so women when they're encouraged to get plastic surgery.
And on men living in rape culture and allowing it to continue:
The initial article, explaining that men raping women is part of our culture and it doesn't fucking have to be like that.
A response with links to other relevant articles
So sad, so serious, so well said.
One person mentioned a game kids were playing at a pool when she was 15 or 16. The guys had just started getting stronger than the girls and they started playing a game where the guys would pick up and dunk the girls. It was in fun and everyone was laughing, but the girls were incapable of physically fighting off the guys, and any objection - shrieking, squirming, struggling - was ignored and seen as part of the game. So the only way to not participate was for this woman to get out of the pool completely. Now, the game itself is not a horrible thing for these kids to have done. But in life, so many of us have to get out of the pool, we're unable to go swimming, because we know it's the only way we can protect ourselves. I could really relate to that, which is why I retyped it even though it's the least disturbing thing to come out of the discussion. Another woman mentioned how she spends too much time making sure she'd be a credible victim, which I can also relate to. I shouldn't have to be a virtuous stay-at-home for people to 1) not rape me and 2) believe me if I say I've been raped. I should be able to be in a drunken stupor at a frat party in a short skirt and I should be safe.
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no subject
Date: 2009-07-06 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:03 am (UTC)Half the problem here is that there are so few mainstream films and tv series that have female characters I want to identify with as a woman, let alone want men to identify with. The majority of female characters in mainstream movies are terrible. Either they're in male-orientated movies, and are there mainly as props or scenery, or they're in female-orientated movies which far too often are about two women being horrible to each other about a man.
People point out that women will watch 'guy movies' but men won't watch 'girl movies'. As far as I can see, this is far more a factor of the quality of so-called 'women's movies'. Most of my friends, male or female, would far rather watch Die Hard then Bride Wars, but then, most of my friends, male or female, can recite most of Mean Girls and Clueless from memory.
When Katee Sackhoff started playing Starbuck, she said she based her on her brother, because she couldn't think of any women with that kind of strength and sense of self.
(Not that gender roles are, inherently, a bad thing. There are studies that show that some of them may be natural, and not just because of socialisation. I don't think we need to eliminate them, just work towards a world where they're platforms instead of boxes.)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:18 am (UTC)Oh, word. Female-oriented movies, or chick flicks, or whatever, almost never have any interest to me. Except for Dirty Dancing. But the guys I know can't recite that, or Clueless, or Pretty Woman or whatever. Although I definitely found my guy friends in Manchester to be less desperately clinging to masculinity than the guys I knew in the US (I didn't go to a co-ed school but my twin sister did, so I have a group of similarly-aged men to draw from).
I touch a little on the overall shitty quality of female characters when I link to the Strong Female Characters article at the bottom but man, I totally failed to make the connection between that and what I'd written about above. XD Although I guess cos in my mind I was partly taking that into account. Men aren't expected to relate to female characters but they also aren't given the opportunity to. The complex characters, the leads, they tend to be men in the big-budget things. And then there are good books by and about women, but they often aren't part of a classic canon, so they aren't taught in schools. . .
I'm not sure what you mean about gender roles or the platform thing? I would like for expectations of behavior not to be based on genitalia - for women to feel free to be CEOs or whatever, or men to feel free to stay at home and nurture their children and for people not to be pressured to dress or act or express themselves in a certain way because of their gender. Presumably there would still be trends and patterns, but people should be more comfortable than they are now to deviate from those patterns.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:36 am (UTC)So even though I have a sort of "gender-neutral" stance, it's more of a "let's move towards the platform thing, where people are free to move outside their gender expectations but those expectations are still there, and then see where we are and reevaluate what needs to be done and how people are doing." Does that make sense?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:39 am (UTC)I have a very complicated relationship with feminism.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:46 am (UTC)1) Comic books (I wasn't a feminist til I started thinking critically about comics)
2) Frustration that widespread assumptions about women never apply to me and then the ensuing distress that people are treating me a certain way based on these assumptions (my lack of relationship with shoes are the simplest and perhaps pettiest expression of this) which is why I get so hung up on gender expression issues.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:03 am (UTC)Mainly, I think I've been lucky to not really know any of the men the radical feminist movement point to as exemplars of the male attitude. I have loads of male friends who respect me as much as they respect each other, and I was raised by a hippie-liberal single father, so I've always been around positive men.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:09 am (UTC)See what I do is almost compulsively read comments on feminist articles, unless I'm feeling really weak or not like being depressed. I just added a link (http://girl-wonder.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=876) to a list of particularly prime quotes. Luckily a lot of anti-feminists come up in feminist circles more than anywhere else, although it does mean that once you get sucked in everything seems really dire. I've been trying to keep perspective more (when I first started reading feminist stuff i was like EVERYTHING IS HELL).
Of course, a lot of people are just plain dumb. So far this is my favorite of the quotes above, and when I say favorite I mean it enrages me most:
"the feminists think that they can honestly say that they are more oppressed than men are, with out actuallying being men, that, my friends is moronic. I, as a man feel very oppressed, tv make us men belive all men should be slim, tall, handsome, well groomed with the expensive cothing. girls would rather have a man that is extreamly handsom than me, because of said generilzationgs." - Ryan.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:35 am (UTC)It's just so much RF seems to come from a man-hating place. And I can't get behind that. I'm a feminist because we should all be equal, not because I hate men.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 12:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:01 am (UTC)Anyway, yeah, it's great that there are female characters who aren't just victims, but I think we're past the point where they need to go so far in the other direction that they can kill anyone who crosses them. Especially when "ass-kicking badass" is her only character trait. Or, probably, that and an inability to have healthy romances. >.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:11 am (UTC)Badass women can be a lot of fun, but I think the important part (that a lot of writers forget) is that you're not doing feminists any favors by writing women who physically kick ass but otherwise fit every female stereotype in the book, or who lack character development beyond "kicks ass and looks good doing it". And if you try to write a strong female character and fail, in some ways that's worse than not writing them at all. (The example that comes to mind is Cuddy from House, since she's supposed to be a strong, in-charge woman and yet House constantly walks all over her. What conclusion are we supposed to draw from that?)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:20 am (UTC)And I totally agree with the second paragraph. Do I have anything else to add? Not that I can think of right now. XD But yeah, writing female characters as people and not props, character development tools, fetish-fulfillment, or weak feminist-quenching overtures is, um. Good.
Edit: I remember! I was going to say, oh man, Japanese television. I think the dichotomy between either really weak and annoying characters or really tough cold ass-kicking characters is really strong. There are only a handful of female characters in dramas that I've been able to like at ALL - like, I like Lisbon even though she's not my favorite?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 01:30 am (UTC)There are female characters I've liked in jdramas, but many more who I either disliked or just didn't have much (or any) interest in. It seems like a lot of female drama characters either fit a lot of Japanese gender stereotypes (some of which annoy me and some of which I just can't relate to), or else their failing to fit those stereotypes is a defining characteristic and way overplayed. I'd love to see more of a happy medium, or at least characters who aren't super-feminine but aren't considered freaks for it either.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-10 12:43 pm (UTC)But to be honest, Whedon's stuff has some female characters that I honestly, truly adore. As you said, a character is really only worth their salt if they are fleshed out and feel real. They have to have a story and a personality for fans to get truly attached to them. I think that Whedon's girls are a great example of that - just look at Zoe or Kaylee in Firefly. One is a strong ex-army woman with combat expertise, the other isn't afraid to flaunt her sexuality and girlyness whilst being a talented mechanic (a traditionally male-orientated career). Buffy is also unusual in that she is still happy to be traditionally feminine (worry about guy troubles and make-up, fuss over prom night, wear pretty pink and lacey clothes) but isn't acting weak and helpless because of it. Those sort of characters help to break the insufferable stereotypes of women either being feminine and girly and useless without a man or big butch badasses.
And again, I am sorry for my rather off-topic rambling. You already know my stance on the gender debate.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-10 04:00 pm (UTC)Not sure what cba is? Urban dictionary tells me "can't be arsed" in which case. . . I don't know. But I definitely agree about the first part.
I don't know if the men are emasculated or the women are fighting for them - although I wasn't watching any of the shows thinking about this, my guess is the fact that the women are fighting for themselves and the men aren't fighting for them makes it seem as though the opposite is happening, because we're so not used to it. Apparently when things go from privilege for one party to equal for all, the privileged party tends to feel like things are unequal.
Manly birds and buildings would be a fun show though.
But yeah. I think the way Whedon writes women reveals some personal stuff about him that I'm not sure I really wanted to know, and certainly patterns reveal, and men seem to often write women to express some sort of fantasy (ahhh, comics) but even though there are strange patterns and it's not entirely without problems, it's as you say - the fact that they're all real, well-rounded, relatable, likable characters absolves him of a lot. Cos then she's not just your fantasy fighting woman. She's a person, with complications beyond the fantasy - the viewer can't forget that the person you're lusting after is a human being, at least (or it's more difficult to do so).
I think Whedon partly comes across as particularly feminist because no one else was doing this. He's one of the only people to write female leads in an action show, and then the fact that he's able to actually write those complex women and is just good at writing characters definitely helps. Although I guess my goal is, indeed, for no one to be labeled "feminist" because the views feminists hold will become normal. So if everyone else was writing positive female characters that didn't draw upon stereotypes or fears (or fantasies), then he'd be normal. . . I don't really know what I'm getting at here. So I apologize for my rambling as well! Whedon is fun to think about though. Anyone going outside the usual one-dimensional tropes for writing women - sex object, mother, nagging shrew, evil tempstress. . . it's a good start.