follow-up

[guingel]

In a creepy bit of synchronicity, a member of ONE OK ROCK (the band that Moriuchi joined as Taka after leavin NEWS?) has been arrested for molesting a girl on the train - touching her thigh for five minutes, apparently. I mention it primarily because the responses here at their community and here at what I believe is a gossip blog perfectly illustrate the concerns I expressed a few days ago about the negative influence these idols have over their fans. (apologies to darkeyedwolf and guiltyschu cos some of this repeats stuff I said to them earlier.) (and ayamachi but she should be used to it by now.)

So, because of this scandal, their upcoming tour and single release have been cancelled. And a lot of the fans - although far less than if it were a JE guy, I shudder to think - are saying stuff along the lines of "it's no big deal, he shouldn't be punished like that" or "why did she say something, stupid woman". They would rather tell themselves that what he did is ok than tell themselves that he did something shitty. Which means they're convincing themselves that groping women isn't bad. How could it be, if their idol did it? It must not be a big deal. Someone said "it's not like he jammed his fingers up her vagina." (Yeah, it is like that.)

Obviously this is a problem with celebrities in general - people idolize them and want to believe that they're good people, and that's why there's so much talk about celebrities being good role models. But I really think that these issues of sexism are worse and more dangerous to their fans because it's so much more difficult for people to realize that it's bad, compared to drug use or something. And I'm certainly not exonerating Western celebrities, it's just - if the Japanese idols that we love are being critiqued by their societies, it's not be translated. So there's a vacuum.

Dooooon't worry, I'm not going to start a community. If you guys thought it was bad, there's no way it'd fly in the fandom as a whole and just wouldn't be effective. I just wanted to add this to more clearly explain the reasons why I thought there was a problem. If fans can convince themselves that something this extreme is an okay thing to do, think how much easier it will be for them to assimilate all the little sexist comments.


Edit: Also, in reference to some of the discussion here about when it is and isn't appropriate to comment on this sort of thing - this guy's behavior, it is clearly wrong, yes? And there's nothing wrong with saying that what he did was wrong. Well, for me, making sexist comments is wrong and harmful in the same unambiguous way, and I see no problem with pointing it out. The cultural slack that I'm cutting is in my expectations and the moral implications of any behavior. I wouldn't say that sexist comments make someone bad or misogynist, because I don't fully understand the culture that leads to them making those comments. But that doesn't mean the comments themselves aren't bad or sexist. (On the other hand, I am making a moral judgement on the groping.) There are other reasons that I think that commenting on these things doesn't cross some sort of line of cultural respect, but that's the main one. (The feminist efforts of Japanese women in Japan is another one.)

I don't think people should be forced or expected to behave a certain way because of their gender, even if those expectations are more extensive and thus carry a greater sway over the behavior of the culture as a whole. I still don't think it's right. And I certainly don't think it's right for women to be objectified and viewed as pleasure objects that exist only for men and to be valued only for their bodies and appearance and what they can do for men. I think that's wrong, no matter what culture it is happening in. These are attitudes that I would like to change in all people, everywhere. I think that universally, people should be respected, treated as human beings, and given choices about how they want to live their lives.

Additionally, the tendency to view women as objects rather than people, to perpetuate negative stereotypes and to emphasize the role of women's bodies in their identites - I think these are major factors in encouraging violence against women. If Alex had been taught that a woman's body is her own, that she should be respected as a fellow human being, and that she is not there for his pleasure, maybe he wouldn't have touched her without her consent.

Comments

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

I was a bit... concerned at some of the things people were saying too, though I didn't follow it too closely. I disagreed with the people who said "If that was in the west, they'd sell more records!" because I very much doubt it. If it was a different sort of crime, like drugs or a minor fight, then maybe - but sexual offences are guaranteed to kill a career. I do feel sorry for the rest of the band, though - they don't deserve to be punished for something one stupid guy did. So I can understand why fans are upset. But seriously, they should be upset at their record company or whatever, not the girl who made a complaint. (I live in dread of the day it happens to a Johnnys I like, I really do. -_- I mean, there was that Subaru rumour, which would've been horrific if true. But I don't believe it was. >.>)

[guingel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just looked into it and it looks like Chris Brown got pulled from radio rotation and his sales are dropping. OK, I didn't look too deeply because once I saw that I wanted to stop and let that be the truth. But it's a big relief. So yeah, scandals can sell records, but not stuff like that.

But. I'm not saying the fans shouldn't be upset that their band is falling apart - I'm saying that the fact that these feelings are leading to them defending his indefensible actions is the problem. And, you know, I don't think the guy necessarily deserves to go to jail for this - but I do think he no longer should be in a public and lucrative career - he's clearly proven himself not suitable to have this sort of influence over people.

[yoda4554.livejournal.com]

There was in fact a slew of similar articles in the US on this subject around the time of the Rihanna-Chris Brown flap, in which it was noted that a great many teenage fans of Mr. Brown (largely female) were arguing that Rihanna must have done something to provoke him into bashing her face, and that it wasn't a big deal.

[guingel.livejournal.com]

I was totally thinking about the Rihanna-Chris Brown thing when this came out. Public response to that was. . . often horrifying. But like you say, at least there was a full array of coverage, which these fans of Japanese groups do not get.

[acidae.livejournal.com]

Apparently there's at least one person wondering if this was some kind of set-up to prevent ONE OK ROCK from getting their major break too. Oh fandom...

[guingel.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be amazing if the Japanese pop music industry was as conspiracy-filled as people think, though? It'd make a great movie. DBSK would be involved, I guess. . .

[aello-lime.livejournal.com]

I was going to comment on your Women Project post but then I started thinking too hard and... time passed. So I'll comment here instead - I am slow in several definitions of the word.

The problem I saw with making a community is that the people who join it wouldn't be the people who need to join. I'm afraid it'd just be preaching to the choir. Which feels good but doesn't do much in the long run. But I just wanted to support you with an alternative to the "I live in Japan and this is a terrible idea!" comments by saying, "I live in Japan... and if there was such a community I would join it." Because to me it's important to consider every situation, and not whitewash the subject with "we can't understand because we're not Japanese," etc.

When someone says, "It's part of their culture," my first instinct is to respond, female genital cutting is a part of the culture in Africa. Foot-binding was a part of the culture in China, and where's that now? That's an extreme example but here's another. I've heard several Johnny's and other talents say they find it attractive when a girl walks or stands pigeon-toed. I'm told it looks more feminine, fragile, makes men want to protect them. "It certainly makes me want to protect them," my mom said when I told her this. "They look like they're about to fall flat on their faces!" I have students - fifteen-year-old girls - whose toes are so turned inward that their legs form an X-shape, and they can only take tiny steps. I wince when I look at them - but they're already trying to fit the idea of beauty.

I'm not saying America in its own way is any better, I'm not saying I want Japanese culture to change overnight. I adore Japan, and there are many aspects of it I wish would stay the same forever. But it's already started changing, and when I've heard females of every generation - the littlest first years, and the teachers old enough to be my grandma - say the same things, "I wish I could do such-and-such activity, but it's only for men," I just want to help them know they can do whatever they want to do, no matter what their culture says.

Re. the One Ok Rock thing - groping on trains is so common here that my company even took time out from our training specifically to tell us how to deal with it: Grab their wrist and hold on tightly as you can, raise it up and say "Chikan!" Try to remember the color and texture of their suit sleeve, if you're carrying lipstick mark them.
That the problem has grown to the extent that there are guidelines about it, that there have to be female-only cars, that women have to be so highly on guard - makes me more frustrated than I can describe.

What tips the balance for me, from the "leave everything the way you found it" POV that I came over with, to my current state of... whatever, is that Japan opened its borders, and is so active in incorporating other cultures. Every, every, every single adult I have had a conversation with asks me what I think about Japan. I know many just want to hear something that will make them feel better, but some really want to know. And I don't think they can be selective now about what they learn. If Japan wants to take into itself the good things about English-speaking countries, they're going to have to accept that less pleasant things come along with it. If they want American women teaching here (I was told at my interview that blondes were more likely to get hired), they're going to also have women who don't respond "it can't be helped" to being groped, or to being insulted.

I apologize, this is really long and and rambling and none of it's stuff you need to hear. I just really needed to say it.

And I'm really sorry that happened to you.

[guingel.livejournal.com]

You make excellent points. What I've been saying lately is that Japan isn't living on the edge of chaos and starvation. Traditional gender roles and social structures aren't the only things holding their culture together in the face of a harsh environment and need to scrabble for their food every day. Even in the case of a society like that, I would probably be willing to critique rampant sexism. As is - even as an outsider, I can recognize social problems. They are all over the world. In Japan, there are social problems related to the treatment and portrayal, and expectations, of women.

When I was in England, I got really frustrated at the tendency to focus so hard on America's problems that people were able to ignore their own. Sure, we've got problems - Bush was president at the time, we have religious fundamentalists running around. But what America also has is a lot of awareness of these issues, a lot of shame, and a significant proportion of the population that wants change. If you just say "at least we're not as bad as _______," you lose that.

But that totally wasn't my point, dang. My point was that I got frustrated with everyone just focusing on American problems and I don't want to do that to Japan - to say "Oh, Japan has so much sexism it's so bad, we don't need to do anything elsewhere." It's just that this is where NOTHING IS BEING DONE. The girls who are fans of these groups may, somewhere, be told that its inappropriate when men wolf whistle at women. But no one is telling them that it's also inappropriate for Jun to say he expects his girlfriend to do his cooking and cleaning. (Yeah, preaching to the choir is something I thought about - but I was sort of thinking at least it'd be out there, and if I could get popular people to join it'd seem cool? I know how easy it is to affect the way a 14 year old thinks about something if someone who's cool on the internet does it. Suddenly you're mature if you're against sexism, and then eventually you come to understand it in your own right.)

What I think also doesn't seem to be coming across is that, while it would entail some critiques of Japanese culture, it wouldn't be about trying to change Japanese culture - although I do think there's a need for change, but I'm certainly not the person to do it. (Actually, I'd love to discuss sex and sexism in Japan with you at some point, cos there are some things that I can't tell if I'm getting a warped perspective about from TV. It just seems like a lot of adult Japanese men are totally unequipped to deal with women in an adult way and act like awkward teenagers about them their whole lives - I guess this image is more associated with otaku-types? Someone told me it's because boys and girls are kept separate and the guys just get crazy lusty.)

[aello-lime.livejournal.com]

I think TV shows definitely show the unbalanced male/female dynamics, because it makes for better drama. Honestly, the male-female relationships among the teachers are probably the most well-balanced out of the places I've worked, gone to school, and even my family. Most of the higher-ups are male, but their attitudes to the females can be best described as, "Some strange quirk of fate put me technically "in charge" of you, but we both know that you're just as capable as me. So let's work hard together to make this school awesome." It's like titles don't really matter - the principal will vacuum the floor and ladle up lunch next to me.
I was weirded out at first by the females serving tea - but even that is very delicately handled. The principal comes to a teacher who isn't doing much, says, "I'm sorry to interrupt you when you're so busy, but if you have a moment of free time could you make some tea for our guest?" and thanks her profusely when she agrees. I know it's not like she can refuse, but I still like the politeness.
And often it will be a man serving the tea! The real point for the hierarchy isn't gender, but how long one's been a teacher, at the school, and how much responsibility one has.

The students do self-segregate like crazy (the boys take out their sexual frustration on each other - and here I thought all those manga were lies!) I'll tell them to do an activity with their neighbor and instead they'll crane around at an awkward angle to find a same gender partner. I'm not sure when they learn to relate well as adults. Maybe it's because the teachers are all 30s-60s and can be mature about it.

But that, I suppose, is the work environment. Which is entirely separate from the dating environment that Johnny's are trying to portray.

[guingel.livejournal.com]

I realized as I was reading this what I was trying to ask about that I couldn't articulate before - stuff like the selling of teenager's panties in vending machines. I've heard that so much that I'm assuming it's not apocryphal - it seems so farfetched that someone would never make it up expected into to be true. That sort of excessive and detached lust. . . to the point where it really does make someone a pervy creeper. That seems more prevalent there, more accepted. Is this just because we hear about it more?

I'm glad you've had such a positive experience at your workplace, though!

I wonder about the self-segregation. . . I know we did a lot of the same, but I also remember I had a "boyfriend" at the age of nine and we sat next to each other and I remember sitting with and chatting with other guys in class - so yeah, it certainly sounds like what you're seeing is more extreme than my own experiences, at least.

[aello-lime.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I've walked through some extremely seedy places in Tokyo and Osaka and have not yet seen a panties vending machine. There might be one somewhere - that some foreigner saw and spread the rumor of - but it's definitely not wide-spread.

I don't know that it's excessive lust , though - I encountered just as much in America, and Europe, for that matter.

Japan is very... If it's possible that someone somewhere could have a fetish for something, there will be someone selling it. Which, on one hand, I admire their inventiveness. And I'm also not sure that I don't prefer the sharp division between their asexuality at work and the free-for-all of their parties. Oh, that's another thing. Even while drunk - and the Japanese are incredible light-weights so they get very drunk very fast - at the staff parties the men have always been total gentlemen.

The problems come when they start tweaking the boundaries to suit themselves. The men who think, because a girl is not a coworker she doesn't need to be respected, because she is not a family member she doesn't need to be protected, so it's okay to take a picture up her skirt. A vice which, thankfully, they are cracking down on lately.
Or the long-held tradition of keeping marriage separate from love, keeping a wife and a mistress, or even visiting prostitutes. That last is my breaking point. A man who uses the excuse that "This is just sex and because I only love my wife it's all right," is someone I can barely see as human. I've read various places that it's a problem in Japan - but I can testify it's a problem in America as well. So it's not just a result of their culture here.

[guingel.livejournal.com]

::nodnod:: Right, right. It's good to be reminded that people everywhere are complex and unique. I know it, but sometimes you need illustrations. :|

I remember at one point thinking that Japan seemed more open about fetishes. So yeah, that probably ties in with what you're saying. Like, here, it's not that people aren't as lusty or men are more or less likely to behave inappropriately towards women, but there's more pressure to have. . . to have the type of sexuality that would lead to you enjoying Playboy. More pressure to be of a type, in what turns you on.

The problems come when they start tweaking the boundaries to suit themselves.

I see - that's a really interesting way to put it. This was really helpful and interesting! I'm sorry I'm too sleepy (and tense) to be able to respond in an intelligent way!

[ohmiya-sg.livejournal.com]

I felt I had nothing to say in response there after reading comments like "He only touched her thigh."

It's just such a...big problem.

[guingel.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I guess it's hard for people to understand how bad that is because if he was someone who knew her, it would be fine. And it doesn't leave a physical impact. So people can't understand how it feels to be in that situation - and some people are so used to it that it doesn't even bother them anymore, which is sad.

[godsgirl7.livejournal.com]

"why did she say something, stupid woman"

It scares me that someone would say something like that. Like, honestly, that's scary.

I really like ONE OK ROCK, and it's too bad that this had to happen, but really, anyone with her head on straight should know exactly whose fault this is. It's certainly not the girl's.

[guingel.livejournal.com]

For the record, that was a paraphrase, but part of the reason I rephrased things was that I couldn't bring myself to actually quote the horrible things that were said. :( It is really upsetting. There are always people who blame the victims in these situations. So depressing!